tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post5260967241376945870..comments2023-10-29T08:04:00.488-07:00Comments on Quintessence of Dust: Introns. Let's think about this, people. Part II.Stephen Mathesonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05057004085073574659noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-2220399803445552642010-07-09T10:37:47.343-07:002010-07-09T10:37:47.343-07:00"Among the 25 are so introns are two very lar..."Among the 25 are so introns are two very large ones"<br /><br />Should be "Among the 25 or so introns are two very large ones"Nicholas Hibbelerhttp://twitter.com/nickhibbelernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-1844225494834858562010-07-07T06:41:19.348-07:002010-07-07T06:41:19.348-07:00No, since in some cases the retained introns are l...<i>No, since in some cases the retained introns are likely to yield<br />functional proteins in others not. </i><br /><br />References, please.Arthur Hunthttp://www.aghunt.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-24450333611068204252010-07-06T20:46:05.959-07:002010-07-06T20:46:05.959-07:00Thanks Steve for these explanations of "junk ...Thanks Steve for these explanations of "junk DNA." <br /><br />In future posts I hope you will address a) how introns came to exist in the genome (what was the mechanism), and b) why it exists in the quantities that is does.<br /><br />However I find it strange that the existence of this junk DNA should cause any problems for IDists. If we think of DNA as part of an information transmission system. It might be useful to think of the introns as Noise DNA and exons as Signal DNA. Due to the second law of thermodynamics , all physical information transmission systems need to cope with the introduction of noise. Apparently the DNA system can cope with a lot of it.<br /><br />Any scientist (especially one who specializes in information systems) should not be surprised to find noise in the DNA signal a well as mechanisms for filtering it out. <br /><br />Now to explain the low S/N in DNA: I would hypothesize that there is a component in the transmission system that produces intron noise. I would also predict that it was more efficient or cheaper or easier to make or enhance an error correction mechanism that filters out the intron nose after it has slipped into the DNA, than to prevent the introns from getting in or to fix the noisy component.<br /><br />I would be interested to see how my predictions compare with the evidence.HornSpielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-14277610146286044662010-07-06T19:36:37.144-07:002010-07-06T19:36:37.144-07:00I am glad to see the results of your research.
Tha...I am glad to see the results of your research.<br />Thanks for sharing it.HornSpielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-40390381795501418142010-07-04T05:17:40.943-07:002010-07-04T05:17:40.943-07:00And it's quite likely that this reflects slopp...<i> And it's quite likely that this reflects sloppiness or errors in splicing, rather than function for the retained intron </i><br /><br />No, since in some cases the retained introns are likely to yield <br />functional proteins in others not.Ashnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-56790848809293177952010-07-03T11:50:48.407-07:002010-07-03T11:50:48.407-07:00It's because they have zero faith that their h...It's because they have zero faith that their hypotheses will stand up to real hands-on research in the lab or in the field.<br /><br />It's a complete fraud.Davisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-77049367322941812132010-07-03T10:51:33.790-07:002010-07-03T10:51:33.790-07:00Re: (1) and if they aren't doing any research ...Re: (1) and if they aren't doing any research into this area, what is stopping them? A bad attitude of self-defeatism by non-ID researchers? I have a feeling that it is because they really don't want to do any research.tuibguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-88027755678509624612010-07-03T10:00:04.978-07:002010-07-03T10:00:04.978-07:00Sorry for not responding about this earlier, but D...Sorry for not responding about this earlier, but Doc Bill IMHO this is just a wrong statement. You can't count conscious decisions of Human Beings as Evolution. Then everything is Evolution even if God did it by miraculous intervention. Intelligent manipulation of the "selection" part of evolution is the same thing as intelligent manipulation of the "variability" part of evolution. It is conscious decisions to manipulate the course of animal development. It is design. Did Mendel allow his plants to just evolve naturally. If he did, he would not have been able to answer his questions.<br /><br />Do you really want to define Evolution so sloppily that it includes all things? Then you really don't have a falsifiable theory. So IMHO I don't think Evolutionists would want this to be defined this way. I could be wrong, of course, and am open to correction if Biologists want to define it this way.John Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-31332134866867002672010-07-02T21:37:19.973-07:002010-07-02T21:37:19.973-07:00John Hansen: What on earth would you mean by such ...<i>John Hansen: What on earth would you mean by such a foolish inquiry? I really don't know how anyone could be quite as contemptuous of others as you seem to be.</i><br />John, you seem to be in need of an irony meter given your juxtaposition of those two sentences. I would have loaned you mine, but it blew up upon reading them.Davisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-16045537250147045412010-07-02T16:16:10.450-07:002010-07-02T16:16:10.450-07:00Why do you assume that someone who believes ( admi...<i>Why do you assume that someone who believes ( admittedly mostly by faith ) that the modern theory of evolution CAN'T adequately explain the diversity and relatedness of life on Earth has inadequate brain power to understand what has been said. </i><br /><br />Whether you possess adequate brain power is a separate issue from whether you understood what was laid out for you. As far as the second issue, I don't think you have the foggiest clue what they are talking about because any question they ask of you for you to demonstrate your understanding or explain the data from your perspective is met either with silence, complaints because they insist you speak in the common language of the scientific field, or an attempt to change the subject. If you had the goods, you would have wowed us by now.Efren TSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-55517469703779014252010-07-02T13:20:28.357-07:002010-07-02T13:20:28.357-07:00Efren TS,
Why do you assume that someone who beli...Efren TS,<br /><br />Why do you assume that someone who believes ( admittedly mostly by faith ) that the modern theory of evolution CAN'T adequately explain the diversity and relatedness of life on Earth has inadequate brain power to understand what has been said. <br /><br />What Steve said about the introns is very easy to comprehend. For one thing Steve seems to be an excellent teacher. But I am afraid that if I try to explain the obvious inferences from this, in my ( not approved by Doc Bill ) jargon, I will be chastised again for some grievous offense.<br /><br />So you make the assumption that because the introns are of different size it implies that the large size of the human genome can't have a function or else the same functionality can't even be approached in the chicken gene. This is not a difficult concept. You further imply that this means the existence of introns which match each other in various genes make common descent the best explantation for the observed facts. These are not difficult concepts to grasp.<br /><br />Doc Bill, I only want to know what you believe because I feel that we have been speaking past each other. Every time I say something, you project beyond what I want to say by assuming me to have some motivation I don't, pose some dumb question, and continue to mock. I don't understand what you are trying to prove. You are in sharp contrast to Harold who politely offered his opinion, he did not tell me I was a moron, just pointed out that I came across badly.<br /><br />My only agenda in asking your belief system was to figure out something about where you come from in discussions. It was not ( as Efren TS contributed ) to pivot to any "evolution is your religion" type argument. I seriously am not trying to lay any rhetorical traps here. I enter into discussions mostly with the hope of learning something - even when it is a discussion with someone I disagree with, or someone who speaks with hostility.John Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-89577205120380131232010-07-02T12:52:16.777-07:002010-07-02T12:52:16.777-07:00Suppose the barn blows down and kills the cows, bu...<i>Suppose the barn blows down and kills the cows, but the ones in the field dodge the Volvo? (get it, "dodge" the volvo? Never mind)</i><br /><br />As much as I like the rest of your post, I'm really not interested in your <i>Saab story</i> here ...SWTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-62537525090708787572010-07-02T12:32:16.907-07:002010-07-02T12:32:16.907-07:00Honnnnnnkkkkkkkk! Wrong answer, John! Humans are...Honnnnnnkkkkkkkk! Wrong answer, John! Humans aren't magical. They're just another selective pressure. Over a period of 15,000 years or so dogs and cats adapted to an environment that gave them food, shelter and protection: living with people. Even with your sacred cow you're dealing with random mutation and selection.<br /><br />People make a semantic distinction between artificial selection and natural selection, but it's the same process under the hood. Besides glass, what's the difference between artificial and natural insemination? How about 4-Hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde and natural vanilla?<br /><br />Suppose Hurricane Alex is coming and I put some of my cows in a barn and leave some in the field. The ones in the barn survive and the ones in the field are killed by a flying Volvo. Aside from the Volvo, is natural evolution somehow interfered with? Suppose the barn blows down and kills the cows, but the ones in the field dodge the Volvo? (get it, "dodge" the volvo? Never mind) Does Evolution care at all? No, it doesn't.<br /><br />How about Craig Venter creating Synthia complete with poetry built into her DNA and other bits snipped out? Did Venter mess with evolution? Arguably, yes, because he directly manipulated the genome but the new organism is now subject to evolutionary processes.Doc Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-18345644094603845172010-07-02T11:11:10.268-07:002010-07-02T11:11:10.268-07:00To answer your question, he understands none of wh...To answer your question, he understands none of what has been painstakenly shared with him. That is why he is trying to change the discussion into "evilution is your religion!"Efren TSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-49460660670943305372010-07-02T10:17:43.629-07:002010-07-02T10:17:43.629-07:00So how far back do your ancestors go, John? Do yo...So how far back do your ancestors go, John? Do you come to a screeching halt at October 26, 4004 BC or, like me, do you go back 3.5 billion years when Grandpa/Grandma joined lipids around a black smoker deep in the ocean and feasted on iron, sulphur and carbon dioxide?<br /><br />Do you understand what Steve wrote about Factor VIII and the chicken? Do you know what that implies?<br /><br />As for a worldview, it's irrelevant in a scientific discussion. I do have a fondness for curry, guacamole and bold coffee.Doc Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-52434400609691806392010-07-02T10:11:23.194-07:002010-07-02T10:11:23.194-07:00I did not answer because the question was stupid a...I did not answer because the question was stupid and it was painfully obvious what answer you were looking for. I'd do find you interesting though. What is your worldview? Are you a TE like Steve, are you and agnostic? an atheist? a materialist?<br /><br />You don't have to answer, I just would like to know where you are coming from.John Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-10391387168403728962010-07-02T10:11:20.895-07:002010-07-02T10:11:20.895-07:00Doc Bill,
In the case of Belgian Blue cattle, ani...Doc Bill,<br /><br />In the case of Belgian Blue cattle, animal husbandry is not just plain evolution, because an animal which develops a mutation that should cause it to die out ( not to many wild animals out there that regularly have caesarian deliveries ) instead survives.John Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-53168012379967085422010-07-02T06:28:30.337-07:002010-07-02T06:28:30.337-07:00Well, John, I'll tell you. The answer is YES ...Well, John, I'll tell you. The answer is YES in every instance. In fact, you had a relative living 6 million years ago, 65 million years ago and 600 million years ago. Answering the question would be your acceptance of common ancestry and descent with modification, in essence the outline of the theory of evolution. I'm not surprised you failed to answer. I don't think you'll commit to any position.<br /><br />As for being contemptuous of others, once again you are completely wrong. I do not hold those who are willfully ignorant in high regard and I am quick to mock them. I am contemptuous of those ideologues who hold positions on our state board of education (Texas) and I work diligently to get them replaced.Doc Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-20665265535952615682010-07-01T23:53:10.084-07:002010-07-01T23:53:10.084-07:00Doc Bill, I have to admit your thinking process i...Doc Bill, I have to admit your thinking process is beyond me. What on earth would you mean by such a foolish inquiry? I really don't know how anyone could be quite as contemptuous of others as you seem to be. I feel sorry for you.John Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-87508616144160464302010-07-01T16:45:27.223-07:002010-07-01T16:45:27.223-07:00John, animal husbandry is not "intelligent de...John, animal husbandry is not "intelligent design creationism." It's regular old evolution. The farmer doesn't manipulate the genome. The farmer just mates the livestock. Evolution, regular old evolution, does the rest.<br /><br />For the farmer to be an "intelligent design creationist" he would have to manipulate individual base pairs in the genome to get the results he desires, and it wouldn't take him many, many generations.<br /><br />However, the farmer just mates big and strong to big and strong and lets ordinary evolution do its thing.<br /><br />ID isn't a "scourge," rather, it's simply WRONG. Nobody wants to "get rid" of ID because it's non-existant to begin with. John, how many BS Biologists graduated in the US alone in 2010? Something like 50,000. How many ID creationists graduated? Zero. What's to "get rid of?"<br /><br />Rather than arguing a point of contention about the Modern Theory of <br />Evolution, John, it appears that you were simply cursing the darkness.<br /><br />Get a candle.Doc Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-28070315216634732922010-07-01T16:12:16.607-07:002010-07-01T16:12:16.607-07:00Let me try to clarify the remark about Belgian Blu...Let me try to clarify the remark about Belgian Blue cattle. Please reread what I wrote. It was not a challenge, it was advice. All I was trying to say, is, if you believe that ID is a scourge and you want to get rid of it, you might not want to use Belgian Blue cattle as an example of anything. Being a animal from animal husbandry, it plays into all of the IDist type arguments against evolution and may distract more than it illustrates. I wasn't arguing anything.John Hansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-76589350134865312002010-07-01T16:06:55.128-07:002010-07-01T16:06:55.128-07:00Thank you, harold, Delta Pi Gamma forever and a ke...Thank you, harold, Delta Pi Gamma forever and a kegger on Friday. My place!<br /><br />I'm going to guess that Hansen balks at biological evolution being a fact, but I'm captive by my "worldview" on that one.<br /><br />However, my question to Hansen would be this. Did you have a direct relative alive during the reign of Elizabeth I? One could answer Yes, No or Don't Know. The answer would be Yes, obviously. <br /><br />Now, Hansen, answer this. Did you have a relative alive in 1000BC? 2000BC? 5000BC? 10,000BC? 50,000BC?<br /><br />I'm curious as to how Hansen would answer those simple questions. The answer is obvious, of course.<br /><br />I had my DNA tested by National Geographic and my ancestors inhabited Europe about 60,000 years ago. I'm pretty chuffed by that.Doc Billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-72729942008540873292010-07-01T13:36:50.004-07:002010-07-01T13:36:50.004-07:00RBH,
Can you send the links? Fascinating.RBH,<br />Can you send the links? Fascinating.John Farrellhttp://twitter.com/JohnWFarrellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-9351022624019304932010-07-01T13:14:21.995-07:002010-07-01T13:14:21.995-07:00Because, according to them, God is on their side, ...Because, according to them, God is on their side, and he makes it happen. Since it's all perfectly designed, there really is no need to explore. The design will show itself once our kind has been purified of evolutionist illusions. <br /><br />Actually, I am just making stuff up. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some Idists actually believed in the rubbish I wrote above. <br /><br />Peace, <br />MattMattthesk8ter1988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4948885059517209129.post-40679699057882292002010-07-01T12:29:28.797-07:002010-07-01T12:29:28.797-07:00…and more importantly, not a single one of those w...…and more importantly, not a single one of those working scientists was convinced that ID is correct by producing the data the ID movement claims vindicates their position.<br /><br />How can the ID movement be so much smarter than working scientists while being so much lazier?Davisnoreply@blogger.com