24 April 2010

Signature in the Cell: Chapters 9 and 10

"He..strikes at randome at a man of straw."
– Richard Saunders, A Balm to heal Religious Wounds, 1652. Quoted in the Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition

"An imaginary adversary, or an invented adverse argument, adduced in order to be triumphantly confuted."
– Second definition entered for "man of straw" in the Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition

Chapter 9 is called "Ends and Odds." Chapter 10 is "Beyond the Reach of Chance." Between them, they advance a straw man so idiotic that I wonder whether Meyer will be able to reclaim any significant intellectual integrity in the chapters that follow. I've already noted that this is not a book of science or of serious scholarship. Now it seems that it doesn't even merit the distinction of popular science or pop philosophy. These two chapters have purely propagandistic aims, and they do serious damage to the book's credibility and to the author's reputation. Meyer has shown his cards.

I can summarize the entire message of both chapters (which consume 34 pages of this bloated mess) in a single sentence: "We have seen that genetic systems of living things are too improbable and too beautifully designed to have come into existence by chance." With annoying repetition and sadly typical scientific naivete, he bulldozes the transparently ludicrous notion that proteins flew into existence through the random combination of their parts. This had already been done, more effectively and with far more panache, by Richard Dawkins himself, and probably by dozens of others before him. Dawkins made this point one of the central ideas of The Blind Watchmaker, and you might recognize my one-sentence summary as a slightly-altered version of the first sentence of chapter 3 of that book. We've done all of this before.

Even if it's true, as Meyer claims, that this notion (which he calls "the chance hypothesis") was once considered plausible, I hope for Meyer's sake that his personal narrative at the beginning of chapter 9 is mythological. He describes how his job as an assistant professor with young children hindered progress on his "research" into the "chance hypothesis." (This made me laugh. Ask me later.) But:
That might have turned out for the best, however. I didn't realize it at the time, but I would be in a much better position to evaluate chance as an explanation for the origin of life after Dembski and another scientist I met in Cambridge that summer had completed their own pieces of the research puzzle. (page 194)
That other scientist is Douglas Axe. We'll come back to his "piece of the research puzzle." But I'm finding it difficult to take any of this seriously. The "chance hypothesis" as a "research puzzle"? REALLY?

Folks, no one who knows anything at all about origins research would ever take that seriously. And Meyer knows this. He's playing to some other crowd here, and these two chapters are part of a major effort in the ID movement to set up and destroy a strawman of such utter insignificance that its continued existence is sufficient to justify a charge of deliberate dishonesty.

Again, I hope Meyer doesn't really mean that he was struggling with a "research problem" concerning the "chance hypothesis" in 1992. Because his whole thesis in chapters 9 and 10, all 34 pages of it, had already been made by Richard Dawkins in The Blind Watchmaker. In 1986.

Now back to the "other scientist."

Douglas Axe is a molecular biologist who's done some interesting work on protein structure and function. Formerly at Cambridge University and now directing the Discovery Institute's Biologic Institute, Axe performed experiments in which he would change the structure of a protein by altering its amino acid composition. His techniques were quite straightforward (if laborious), and he focused his experiments on proteins that had functions that could be easily measured quantitatively. He found that some regions of some proteins were quite robust to significant change, and that other regions were less tolerant of such mutation. He measured only the specific function of the original protein (meaning that he did not look for novel functions) and made large numbers of changes at once (at least five amino acids were changed at a time). His papers are rarely cited, and have had little impact on the understanding of protein structure-function relationships. The experiment that Meyer singles out for emphasis has been completely superseded, in my view, by more detailed and comprehensive analyses reported recently. (Analysis of Axe's work would merit a separate post, but I'm an associate professor with two jobs and four kids, so I don't know if I'll get to that project anytime soon.)

I mean no disrespect to Dr. Axe, who I don't know at all, when I say that his contributions have been modest and his impact on the study of molecular evolution negligible. Hilariously, Steve Meyer devotes several pages to Axe's work, and includes his picture. When Axe arrives at a typically gargantuan number to represent the "odds of producing a functional protein sequence of modest length...at random," Meyer announces that "this was a very significant result." It wasn't. First, of course, we already know that such things are effectively impossible. But what about Axe's specific conclusions in that particular paper? According to Google Scholar, the paper has been cited a whopping 23 times, and those citations include a silly chapter by Meyer himself, an article in the Journal of Creation, and a book called LIBERTY OR DEATH. My dissertation research, published a few years earlier and describing the growth of moth nerve cells in culture, has been cited 30 times, and not once by a creationist or a colonial Virginian.

Chapters 9 and 10 of Signature in the Cell are, for me, the smoking gun. Steve Meyer does not aim to delve into the interesting details of origins-of-life research, nor does he intend to describe current theories and their interactions. There is not now, and never was, a "research project." There's a project, but its purpose is political and its goal is persuasion. Why on earth these folks can't just be honest about that, I guess I'll never know.

Oh, and we can't end without letting Steve and Charles go head to head.

From page 227 of Signature in the Cell, near the end of chapter 10:
I began to wonder if the odds of life arising by chance alone, at least under the circumstances envisioned by advocates of the chance hypothesis, weren't actually zero. Imagine that a casino owner invents a game in which the object is to roll 777 consecutive "sevens" with a set of dice. He asks the odds makers to calculate the chances of any one contestant winning. They are, of course, infinitesimally small. But now he gives the odds makers some additional information. The dice are made of white chocolate with with dark chocolate spots on the faces, both of which will melt as the result of the glare of the lights over the game table and repeated handling by the game players. Now what are the odds of turning up 777 sevens in a row?
And this is from page 227 of the Origin of Species, 6th Edition:
It has been objected to the foregoing view of the origin of instincts that "the variations of structure and of instinct must have been simultaneous and accurately adjusted to each other, as a modification in the one without an immediate corresponding change in the other would have been fatal." The force of this objection rests entirely on the assumption that the changes in the instincts and structure are abrupt.
That's the beginning of a section entitled "Objections to the Theory of Natural Selection as applied to Instincts: Neuter and Sterile Insects." And there's Steve Meyer's confusion, answered a century and a half ago. Charles Darwin wasn't always right, but here he deserves the last word.

64 comments:

NickM said...

"I didn't realize it at the time, but I would be in a much better position to evaluate chance as an explanation for the origin of life after Dembski and another scientist I met in Cambridge that summer had completed their own pieces of the research puzzle."

Glad this is still going. How do we know the 1994 Cambridge scientist is Doug Axe, though? Does Meyer say so? (looking on the web, Axe got his PhD in 1990 and then went to Cambridge, so I guess it's reasonable)

The other funny part is "other scientist"...

John said...

The book is an egregious piece of folk science. When are ID advocates going to wake up and smell the coffee? There is no global conspiracy to exclude their views from being heard by scientists. Their views have been heard and they have been rejected. This is not because of a bias for "naturalism." It is because they repeatedly show poor understanding of the relevant details, lack of experimental support for key claims, frequent (often seemingly inexcusable) misreprensentation of data that contradicts major premises, and general all-round poor scholarship.

RBH said...

Tried to throw a trackback from Panda's Thumb but got an error message.

Stephen Matheson said...

Nick, it's clear from the chapter that the other scientist is Axe; only Dembski and Axe are mentioned in those chapters as people he met in Cambridge, and the historic meeting of those great minds occurred in the summer of 1992. (page 209). I wouldn't laugh at the descriptor, though: Axe is pretty confused, and his writings on the Biologic site are a disgrace, but he's a real scientist.

John, I think the ID leadership is wide awake and knows exactly what it's doing. Their audience could use some coffee, that's for sure, but the way to fix the leadership is to replace it.

RBH, thanks for the link! I don't know why backlinks from PT don't make it here; I think they never have. It's probably one reason to move this blog somewhere else at some point.

Arthur Hunt said...

Meyer's take on Axe's work is wrong.

I am amazed that the DI would make such sweeping conclusions about the landscape of protein structure and function based on the sensitivity of an extensively crippled temperature-sensitive enzyme to mutation.

Bill said...

Meyer deliberately ignores 50 years of origin of life research. Furthermore, Meyer's notion of chemistry as a "random assembly" of atoms is laughable, except coming from a creationist it's par.

Anonymous said...

RE: The Biologic Institute - I had to laugh when, after their 'publications' web page remained blank for over a year, they decided to pad it with a bunch of non-ID related prior publications from the people involved.

Better to look impressive than to be impressive?

David Larkin said...

Not everyone is as knowledgeable as you in this area of science. Even though the chance hypothesis may be a straw man to you, it is significant that statistically it is impossible that DNA could have developed by chance. For those who simply read it as an explication of the statistical improbability and not a political statement, it is interesting that you read it as political, which may be a projection of your own agenda. So, that being said, how did it come about in natural history? I'm sure there is no straw man on that issue?

RBH said...

No, David C, it is not "significant that statistically it is impossible that DNA could have developed by chance." That notion is not promulgated by anyone except creationists who use it to misrepresent the actual science--that's why it's called a straw man. That's not a political statement; it's a description of the situation. I have no idea where David's assertion that it's "political" comes from. It's not in the OP nor in any of the comments that I can see.

Anonymous said...

"it is significant that statistically it is impossible that DNA could have developed by chance"

Is that so?

I've always found that observation trumps math.



Extraterrestrial nucleobases in the Murchison meteorite


Abstract
Carbon-rich meteorites, carbonaceous chondrites, contain many biologically relevant organic molecules and delivered prebiotic material to the young Earth. We
present compound-specific carbon isotope data indicating that measured purine and pyrimidine compounds are indigenous components of the Murchison meteorite. Carbon isotope ratios for uracil and xanthine of δ13C = +44.5‰ and +37.7‰, respectively,
indicate a non-terrestrial origin for these compounds. These new results demonstrate that organic compounds, which are components of the genetic code in modern biochemistry, were already present in the early solar system and may have played a key role in life’s origin.



Clealry, that is statistically impossible.

Stephen Matheson said...

David C., the lengthy treatment of the ludicrous "chance hypothesis," along with Meyer's pretense to have been seriously considering it for years, is a classic straw man for the simple reason that it fulfills both criteria of the definition: the idea being attacked is wholly different from the relevant competing ideas (those being OOL theories) and it is introduced in order to be thoroughly demolished as a show. (Your remark at the end makes it seem that you don't understand what a straw man really is.)

Such tactics are, in my view, dishonest. Because they mislead people. It worked on you.

And my term "political" refers to the project (of the ID movement). See the writings of Ted Davis at Messiah College on this topic. The term "political" is used in the broad sense, not in the sense of elections or parties.

The straw man of the "chance hypothesis," which is ubiquitous in anti-evolution writings as RBH notes, is propagandistic in nature to the extent that it serves to manipulate the way people look at the issue, obscuring the true nature of scientific debates and theories about OOL.

I hope that clarifies those two terms (propagandistic and political).

RBH said...

Ack. I missed that mention of "political" in the OP. Apologies.

Martin LaBar said...

Again, thanks for slogging through this book.

David Larkin said...

I know what a straw man is. However, it is common knowledge that Darwinism promotes species change through gradual random mutation, so the principle of randomness is linked with natural explanation of life, whether by straw or not. So, if Meyer is working his way through the argument for a natural rather than intelligently designed RNA and DNA development, random development of those complex proteins from scratch is a relevant matter. That's how it struck me when I read it. I'm not a scientist, but the mathematical improbability ruling out randomness, changes the focus of inquiry for appearance of life proteins, hence, Hoyles solution of extraterrestrial source. I really don't understand the animosity and attribution of straw man to a simple mathematical discussion of probability of formation by natural cause. Maybe because I am not a scientist who has an intellectual investment in Darwinism?

David Larkin said...

So, how is Kaufman doing in producing DNA through autocatalytic mechanisms?

David Larkin said...

It is interesting to read sarcasm and ridicule from so many who have not read Meyer's book. I wonder if the blogger here has read the book. If you read the book, then you know that Meyer is a science historian, with his Ph.D from Cambridge in that discipline. You would also know that he moves on from randomness, the first stop, to self-organization and the other current explorations in the origin of life discipline. So, rather than dismiss his discussion of the chance hypothesis that needs to be ruled out in a historical development of origin of life research, the blogger should have concentrated on the discussion in Meyer's book of self-organization research and the other topics beyond chapters 9 and 10. But then, there would have a need to face the real issues, rather than dismiss a dissenter as irrelevant because he is not a member of the priestly science establishment.

David Larkin said...

The more I think about it, the bloggers attack on Chapters 9 and 10 is an attack on a straw man, because the book is not limited to those chapters, and the attack on the underlying argument on the book, should be in his analysis of the current efforts, e.g., autocatalytic reactions, etc., not in the simple mathematical ruling out of randomness and chance as a source of the complexity of life. This is significant because my impression is that no one with any real scientific bones in his body would "slog" through this book.

Stephen Matheson said...

David C., I'm so sorry that you've been duped by the straw man. I've done my best. Your fatal mistake was to buy the dishonest claim that evolution is fundamentally random, or that a fully random OOL is a theory worthy of serious consideration.

I'll remind you that Meyer claims to have been pondering this as a "research project" for years, and devotes a very significant amount of verbiage (tiresomely repeated) to a "hypothesis" that merits only passing mention. Typical straw man.

As for the rest of your commentary, I guess you didn't notice all the other posts on the book. If you had, then you'd know that I'm blogging through the book and have only gotten through chapter 10 so far. My final piece of advice to you is this: pay closer attention, whether you're reading me or reading Meyer. The last word is yours, unless you want to have a more substantive discussion.

David Larkin said...

He who believes that some ancient form was transformed suddenly through an internal force or tendency into, for instance, one furnished with wings, will be almost compelled to assume, in opposition to all analogy, that many individuals varied simultaneously. It cannot be denied that such abrupt and great changes of structure are widely different from those which most species apparently have undergone. He will further be compelled to believe that many structures beautifully adapted to all the other parts of the same creature and to the surrounding conditions, have been suddenly produced; and of such complex and wonderful co-adaptations, he will not be able to assign a shadow of an explanation. He will be forced to admit that these great and sudden transformations have left no trace of their action on the embryo. To admit all this is, as it seems to me, to enter into the realms of miracle, and to leave those of science.

Darwin, C. (1872) The Origin of Species. Sixth Edition. The Modern Library, New York.

David Larkin said...

I'm glad you are blogging through the book. However, your post on 9 and 10 was abusively dismissive, so I jumped to the conclusion that you would not waste your time on the rest. I am not a scientist. However, I have shared significant excerpts from Chapters 9 and 10 with a number of 60 year old Yale alumni who are not evolutionary scientists and for them, the fact that mathematically, random development of life was improbable had value, even though they do not by any means subscribe to intelligent design. They were interested in the problem. Maybe the discussion of mathematical probability was insignificant to you, but it matters to those laypersons who have not already dismissed it professionally. I will be interested in your comments on the remaining chapters. I have an open mind, maybe to open, from what I read from professionals.

RBH said...

David C wrote

However, it is common knowledge that Darwinism promotes species change through gradual random mutation, so the principle of randomness is linked with natural explanation of life, whether by straw or not.

We can add non sequitur to the list along with straw man. The question at issue in Meyer's book is the origin of life, not the evolution of the diversity of life following life's origin. Species change has to do with the latter, not the former. "Darwinism" is indifferent to how life got started. Once imperfect replicators with heritable variation exist in an environment with at least one limiting resource, the "Darwinian" variation/selection algorithm will operate automatically. But "Darwinism" doesn't care how those replicators came to be, so invoking "gradual random mutation" to justify Meyer's extended discussion of the claim that OOL research imagines that the original replicators originated by pure chance processes is a non sequitur used to attempt to justify a straw man.

David Larkin said...

I sincerely disagree. While Darwin may seem indifferent to origin of life to you, he is not indifferent to the miraculous in natural history, which my clip was intended to point out. Naturalism requires non-miraculous explanation. Accordingly, if the mathematics tend to argue for miraculous, as any fair reading of the mathematics would understand, then the burden remains to find a natural explanation. That was the intent of Meyer's discussion of his personal quest for understanding.

You wrote: "Between them, they advance a straw man so idiotic that I wonder whether Meyer will be able to reclaim any significant intellectual integrity in the chapters that follow."

The mathematical calculations in these chapters are not "idiotic," which is the connotative implication of your abusive dismissal. You ignore the extensive discussion of the history of the international discussion between scientists regarding doubt about the evidence of chance or random generation of life. That is the preface to his personal investigation, which clearly it was. You may consider it a strawman, because you think this is just argument, but for me, I read it as history of an idea as well.

Stephen Matheson said...

Gosh, David, I must reiterate my exhortation that you pay much closer attention. You are confused about the role of randomness in evolution, you're confused about what Darwin meant in that passage, you're confused about the relevance of Meyer's strawman, and you're even confused about whose comments you're responding to.

Your disagreement and your confusion are both noted. You should read more carefully, think more deliberately, and be slower to react to ideas you appear not to fully understand. This time I'm serious: you can have the last word unless you mean to ask or discuss issues of substance.

David Larkin said...

I am not confused, nor was Stephen Jay Gould. Read pages 760 and 761 of his opus, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory.

I think I am reacting to the dismissive tone of the discussion, but I assure you I am not confused about the essence of this.

David Larkin said...

So you disagree with Meyer's explanation for his own method. That's your perogative, but I think he is sincere and that chance was a hypothesis that was first considered. I am glad that he provided the full mathematical argument that he did. Dembski has a Ph.D in mathematics from University of Chicago. That's a pretty impressive Ph.D. What are your mathematics credentials, if we are talking credibility? As Meyer wrote in one of your linked articles:

"In the process of using the method of multiple competing hypotheses to develop my case for intelligent design in Signature in the Cell, I do examine the chance hypothesis for the origin of life, because it is one of the many competing hypotheses that have been proposed to explain the origin of the first life and the origin of biological information. Naturally, since chance was one of the first hypotheses proposed to explain the origin of life in the wake of the discovery of the information-bearing properties of DNA, I critique it first. Nevertheless, I go on to examine many more recent models for the origin of biological information including those that rely on physical-chemical necessity (such as current self-organizational models), and those that rely on the interplay between chance and necessity (such as the currently popular RNA world scenario). My discussion of these models takes over 90 pages and four chapters."

Anonymous said...

I just want to thank you, David C., for making me laugh. Over a span of mere five hours, you've managed to write nine comments that contain either meaningless quotes or your praises of yourself and other people with credentials or some combination of the two. Either you really have too much time on your hands to google as you please or your own ego is preventing you to admit the fact that you really have no idea what you are talking about. When the blogger says that you should take time to think about what you're writing, you really should take time to think and then post it all in one coherent comment.

Again, thanks for the entertainment!

David Larkin said...

Glad you enjoyed it. Pride cometh before a fall.

David Larkin said...

I don't think your ad hominem criticism of accomplished professionals does any of you any credit other than puff yourselves up in your own eyes. Good luck mocking those who disagree with you, and patting yourselves on the back for you special knowledge. My point was that for those who are not scientists, Meyer's discussion of mathematical probability of chance production of life was informative. If life did not occur by chance, then it occurred by determined reactions built into the singularity, which is as hard to believe as design.

David Larkin said...

I look forward to your scathing put-down of the idiotic Jerry Fodor, as well. The nerve of these people anyway. Did you read Stephen Jay Gould's discussion of past dishonesty in the evolution profession with regard to stasis versus gradualism. That must have been good for a laugh as well. Gould should have stuck with baseball.

David Larkin said...

"Extraterrestrial nucleobases in the Murchison meteorite"

And do you believe in an infinite series of random interplanetary deposits of life proteins? Not with a big bang you don't.

What's going on here? Are you all out of sorts because you think Meyer is leading people to believe that science is working on a theory of chance? If so, then you certainly mistook my comments, and no wonder you all are laughing. You don't understand the significance of the "chance hypothesis," regardless of whether it is history, which Meyer made clear and I can't imagine anyone thinking that that is where science is working today from his book. Yet, that's what seems to be the subject of your hilarity and anger at the alleged misrepresentation.

David Larkin said...

You wrote:

"According to Google Scholar, the paper has been cited a whopping 23 times, and those citations include a silly chapter by Meyer himself, an article in the Journal of Creation, and a book called LIBERTY OR DEATH. My dissertation research, published a few years earlier and describing the growth of moth nerve cells in culture, has been cited 30 times, and not once by a creationist or a colonial Virginian."

And what kind of argument is this? People in your profession are more interested in moth nerve cells than a paper with less than popular implications about the origin of life. And therefore, Axe's conclusions are worthless dung because he shows up less than your paper on a google search? Very scientific critique. You need to do a review of your own review.

Anonymous said...

Ever occur to you, David, that "anonymous" might stand for more than one person? I am not the person that cited the paper about the extraterrestrial nucleotides. I actually have no interest in this topic. I just enjoy watching you write comments that not even the blogger himself is interested in replying to anymore. And after another great laugh, neither am I. Au revoir et bonne chance!

David Larkin said...

Why would I care what anonymous stood for, one or many, making no significant contribution other than private laugh out of their own ignorance and lack of interest. The fact that you think that is significant is revealing.

Anyone who thinks it is not significant that the mathematical probability of life developing by chance is prohibitive cannot see the forest for the trees. How's the research on replication of the transition from prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells coming? Any replication of fusion creating nuclei or mitochondria? There's a area of evolution where you can really make fun of skeptics.

NickM said...

"I wouldn't laugh at the descriptor, though: Axe is pretty confused, and his writings on the Biologic site are a disgrace, but he's a real scientist."

I don't have a problem saying Axe is a scientist. I was actually laughing at Meyer's implication that *Dembski* was a scientist. ;-) Cheers!

Nick

Stephen Matheson said...

Nick:
Oh. Heh. Good point. Agreed.

Anonymous said...

David C writes:

"I really don't understand the animosity and attribution of straw man to a simple mathematical discussion of probability of formation by natural cause. Maybe because I am not a scientist who has an intellectual investment in Darwinism?"


Problem, you've presented no discussion at all, just an assertion. If you are going to 'discuss' this, then lets see what you've got - show us the numbers, who decided what those numbers were, how they were determined, etc.

Anonymous said...

David C writes:

"...will be almost compelled to assume, in opposition to all analogy,"

Analogies are educational tools, not evidence. When are creationists going to finally understadn this simple fact?

Anonymous said...

"I don't think your ad hominem criticism of accomplished professionals does any of you any credit other than puff yourselves up in your own eyes."

Another one apparently unsure of what "ad hominem" means. This seems to be a true pathology with such folk - I read yesterday on a discussion board where a creationist accused an evolutionist of using an ad hominem because the he did not believe something that the creationist had written.

Amazing.

Anonymous said...

And then come the accusations of not understanding things...

David C rants:

"Extraterrestrial nucleobases in the Murchison meteorite"

And do you believe in an infinite series of random interplanetary deposits of life proteins? Not with a big bang you don't."


Um, OK....

I provided that reference in response to the claim - YOUR claim - that it is "significant that statistically it is impossible that DNA could have developed by chance". Well, did the purines and pyrimidines in the meteorite arise via 'chance' chemical interactions, or was your Designer floating about in space 'creating' them just for fun?



"What's going on here? Are you all out of sorts because you think Meyer is leading people to believe that science is working on a theory of chance?"


You mean that Meyer is setting up elaborate strawmen that his target audience will not be sophisticated enough to see through? Yes.


"If so, then you certainly mistook my comments, and no wonder you all are laughing. You don't understand the significance of the "chance hypothesis," regardless of whether it is history, which Meyer made clear and I can't imagine anyone thinking that that is where science is working today from his book."


Why should we understand Meyer's made up stories? HE can't even seem to keep some of his claims straight - see Jeff Shallit's demolition of his "information" claims.

andrew said...

gotta love the OCD comment wars.

i've very much enjoyed reading this series. much as it sucks for you, you should totally keep reading and keep blogging the book.

David Larkin said...

My comments were not a rant, by the way. I read a review that had no mathematics in it, only a criticism of Meyer for providing a history of the origin of life science. It is a fact that chance is a major premise of evolution, as opposed to design. They are contrary concepts. So, when examining a history of a science, it is not insignificant that scientists have necessarily dropped chance as an explanation for the origin of life. Meyer gives a more complete study of the mathematical probability that is very impressive, so rather than attack the mathematics, as you humorously suggest I do, the reviewer attacks and ridicule's Meyer's discussion of this, and does not attack the math, by the way, because he is apparently afraid that those who are not so knowledgeable about evolution science, will stop reading after chapter 10. Unless you are going provide a critique of the math, you critique is really an ad hominem attack on Meyer, as the adjectives used reveal.

I am very interested in the research in this area, and I would not be crushed if Kauffman or successors were able to bring an RNA molecule into existence from scratch with autocatalytic mechanisms. That would be very exciting.

I really think you should be more respectful of the dissent here, if you want to be persuasive to skeptics. I was a firm believer in evolution as an explanation for many years. I remember reading Teilhard de Chardin's incorporation of evolution into theology in the late 60s. I didn't have any problem with evolution as a natural explanation for biological diversity. However, since then I have been exposed to the critiques of scientists, like Behe, who you despise, despite his honest questioning, preferring plausibility of speculative pathways to complex interactive systems in a living cell, for example, as a sufficient explanation for the appearance of a living eukaryotic cell, ignoring the very difficult problem of how the cell transitioned to that complex cell, offering speculation as fact to the public. I would love to see a replication in the lab, or an explanation of transition states that survived and were naturally selected on the way to the fully developed living cell, but there is none. Nevertheless, you ridicule the critics simply because they give up in your eyes on finding an explanation, which is certainly a natural human emotional reaction, but there needs to be a more rational and accessible explanation for how living cells were able to evolve to the state that Behe calls "irreducibly complex," and for which he is ridiculed based on speculation rather than science, which has made its living by experiment and in this case, replication of the natural history in the lab verifying the speculative proposals which have not reached the level of full-blown theory. The explanations offered for the evolution of the motor that moves the flagellum are not sufficient, and scientists should admit this.

This is the problem with your review. Rather than offer an explanation why the math is wrong, you complain with derisive personal attacks on the men themselves, and the inclusion of the chance hypothesis in what is declared to be Meyer's personal search for answers in this difficult area of science.

Your attitude is also exemplified by your ad hominem attack on me, which is laughable to me.

David Larkin said...

You wrote: "Well, did the purines and pyrimidines in the meteorite arise via 'chance' chemical interactions, or was your Designer floating about in space 'creating' them just for fun?

If you asked that derisive question in Court, objection "Compound" would be sustained because of the implication that these are the only two alternatives.

My point was that we have limited time to develop DNA from scratch in a universe that astrophysicists tell us is less than 14 billion years old. The fact that some precursors are found on a meteorite only shows that random organic reactions are occurring elsewhere in the universe. These pre-proteins are not DNA. It is the limited time to produce the complex RNA and DNA molecules that makes the math in Meyer's discussion of the chance hypothesis significant. The fact that these organic reactions are taking place elsewhere in the universe is only confirmation that what we see through telescopes is really out there, and that the same elements we have here are out there also.

Bill said...

David C -

Purines and pyrimidines are not precursors to proteins. Proteins are composed of amino acids.

DNA is composed of purines (adenine, guanine) and pyrimidines (thymine and cytocine and uracil)

It's abundantly clear to the most casual observer that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I know it's too late, but you should consult Wikipedia at least before demonstrating to the Internet your ignorance.

David Larkin said...

Yes, I erred. I admit I am not as smart as you guys. However, you are attacking a straw man. :-) Obviously, I meant precursor to RNA and DNA since that is what we are talking about. Not everyone who reads your reviews is an evolutionary biologist. Is that a requirement for reading and commenting? My comments began with a criticism of the tone and the overblown criticism of Meyer's choice to spend two chapters on the mathematical improbability of chance as an explanation for the origin of life.

Now, since you cited the appearance of purines and pyrimidines as evidence of something, what are the odds of purines and pyrimidines forming themselves into RNA and DNA by chance in 14 billion years? That's the issue that is being critiqued, is it not?

So, you have your precursors. Do you have better math, better probability, to overturn the mathematical calculations in Meyer? That's your burden not mine. You provided the outer space phenomenon. If you have the math, I would be glad to see it, and so would Meyer I would think. That's the issue in Chapters 9 and 10 of Meyer's book.

Stephen Matheson said...

Andrew! Thanks for the perceptive comment. It's a crappy job, but I'll finish it, and I really do think there will be some flashes of insight from Meyer in chapters to come.

David Larkin said...

Since I feel like I know you guys, I will share that I live in Arizona and I found out this evening from a highly placed government source that the reason Arizona Governor Brewer waited several days to sign the immigration bill into law was because she needed to make sure her house was cleaned, her pool was cleaned and her lawn was mowed.

Anonymous said...

David C., thanks for your comments. You've captured my own perspective nicely.

Bilbo said...

Douglas Axe has a new paper out here:

http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.1/BIO-C.2010.1

Anonymous said...

Much appreciated, Bilbo. I've read only the abstract, but it looks interesting to me.

Let's hope that those who wish to argue in favor of a Darwinian origin of protein folds can deploy something other than snark in their armamentarium.

Bilbo said...

"Armamentarium"?

Anonymous said...

Bilbo, my dictionary defines it as "a collection of resources available for a certain purpose: the entire armamentarium of electronic surveillance."

If you strip away the snark from Matheson's critique of Signature, I don't see much of substance that's left.

I think that's what David C. was saying, too.

Anonymous said...

David C writes:

"Now, since you cited the appearance of purines and pyrimidines as evidence of something, what are the odds of purines and pyrimidines forming themselves into RNA and DNA by chance in 14 billion years? That's the issue that is being critiqued, is it not? "

High-Speed Internet Acces: $25
Typical creationist book" $15
Seeing a creationist produce what I am sure he thinks is a killer comeback/argument but is instead a demon stration that he should probably not write anythying on these matters: PRICELESS

Anonymous said...

Bilbo or pro-ID anomnymous - can either of you explain Axe's paper's to us?

Anonymous said...

By the way - I am especially interested in the "origin" of protein folds - presumably IDists can now 'explain' how hydrogen bonds work... Or something...

David Larkin said...

I don't think these two questions were meant as killer/comebacks when I wrote them, but simply questions that seemed appropriate written on the fly. Some people like you enjoy using the term "creationist" as a pejorative, lumping those who see design as evidence of a creator with those who believe the earth is 5,000 years old. Pure naturalism or scientism is a 20th century faith. Of course, it goes without saying that Creationist include genius physicists like Newton, and literary genius like Vladimir Nabokov, who saw design in nature.

http://betweentwocities.com/2008/07/20/vladimir-nabokov-furious-darwin-doubter/

Newton did not believe gravity was inherent in matter and Leibniz considered gravity to be miraculous.

http://betweentwocities.com/2010/01/26/what-is-a-force/

Jim H said...

Any news on who the other critics will be at BIOLA on Friday?

Anonymous said...

In reviewing Coyne's recent book, Futuyma noted: "I can think of few changes that I would make beyond correcting a few proofreading lapses (Linnaeus's great work was exactly a century after the date given) and minor errors. (Male stag beetles have sexually selected mandibles, not horns, and when will we ever stop hearing about the ‘peacock's tail’?"

Nice.

I can't help thinking what someone with the animus of Matheson might have done with these seemingly benign errors.

Laypersons such as me, David C., and the other "pro-ID anomnymous" [sic] are not impressed with how fancily the rapier is wielded, but with the actual "touches" scored.

Anonymous said...

Bilbo or pro-ID anomnymous - can either of you explain Axe's paper's to us?

May 10, 2010 8:39 AM


Anonymous said...
By the way - I am especially interested in the "origin" of protein folds - presumably IDists can now 'explain' how hydrogen bonds work... Or something...

*********************


Guess not. No surprise there.

Kent said...

Hi Steve,

I have never posted here before. I am hoping you will post your evaluation of the Biola debate last Friday. I would really like your perspective on what happened. I was surprised to read Hunt's surprisingly upbeat evaluation on PT. In my opinion it did not turn out so well.

I watched the debate here in Dallas with a local Reasonable Faith chapter. I was the only TE proponent in attendance. We all had hoped for a more robust rebuttal from the panel. The opinion expressed was generally, "I wish they had done their homework. Is that all they could come up with?"

At one point Meyer was able to rhetorically blindside you saying something like "Well I guess you are admitting that ID is the most likely explanation." You of course were admitting no such thing. Unfortunately, that turned out to be the most memorable exchange of the evening. Perhaps you would like to comment on that.

Excuse me if I do some Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking and offer a couple suggestions for next time...?:

Focus on the issues that Meyers raised in the presentation—specifically that the mechanism of natural selection cannot account for the information in the genome. He should have been made to defend his contention that an intelligent designer is the most parsimonious explanation. ID people are always dismissive of the power of natural selection. Don't let them get away with that.

Clarify at the outset that, if you are not going to bring up the issue of whether ID was Science or not, you are not conceding that ID has a legitimate scientific program. Push them on explaining what their research program really is. Give them enough rope, and they will hang themselves.

Anonymous said...

Steve,

I think something that will put objections to your post to rest would have to entail explaining what hypothesis you prefer as opposed to chance.

Do you know of a way for selection to operate before cellular division was even possible or am I just missing the mark like everyone else in the ID camp?

Dave Wisker said...

David C:

"I am very interested in the research in this area, and I would not be crushed if Kauffman or successors were able to bring an RNA molecule into existence from scratch with autocatalytic mechanisms. That would be very exciting"


Powner MW, B Gerland, & JD. Sutherland (2009). Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions. Nature 459: 239-241

Costanzo, G, S Pina, F Ciciriello & E Di Maurio (2009). Generation of long RNA chains in water. Journal of Biological Chemistry http://www.jbc.org/cgi/doi/10.1074/jbc.M109.041905

Arthur Hunt said...

Hi Kent,

Thanks for the commentary/Monday morning quarterbacking. I'd be glad to elaborate on the following at more length on my own blog, but I thought I would briefly explain my own "upbeat evaluation".

I only got to ask three questions. In Meyer's responses, we saw:

1. That Meyer was clueless about fundamental gene expression and regulation processes. (This guts every page and chapter in his book wherein he intimates that he is knowledgeable about the things he is commenting on.)

2. That Meyer admitted to a disconnect between the ID conception of information and biological function.

3. That Meyer admitted that the argument by analogy (one that, Meyer's claims notwithstanding, is the entire basis for his assertions about DNA) is not a good one.

4. That Meyer ducked my challenge/assertion that there is in fact no Complex Specified Information resident in proteins.

I'll admit that none of these things may play well to a lay audience. But that's the problem with any technical discussion. My intention was to put a discussion of some technical matters into the public record, not to win some sort of popularity contest. The bottom line is, when it comes to the facts, Meyer did not hold up his end last Friday.

As I said, I'm delighted to explain these things at "my place", so as to not lose sight of Steve's points here.

DiEb said...

Casey Luskins wrote an article in the ebook Signature of a Controversy, which attacks your detailed critique. He even did a podcast!

Dave Wisker said...

Anonymous writes,

Do you know of a way for selection to operate before cellular division was even possible or am I just missing the mark like everyone else in the ID camp?

Selection is simply differential reproductive capacity. This can apply to a strand of RNA as much as it applies to a cell or organism. So, if a particular RNA sequence is capable of accurate replication--over and above the replicative capacity of other sequences--it will become more common in the overall population of RNA sequences. That is natural selection.